CC meeting

same agenda from last week ,since last week's meeting was rescheduled.
Agenda: LLC Update, Ticket update, Dogs, Post sustainability review
Stack: Prost
Facilitator: Lance
Minutes:LLC Update:

Nobody: Budget and stuff

Sparky: A few requests for exceptional items from AFs and if we are conservative with our spending we won’t dip too much into our Silo. (Silo is the bank that keeps up in the black). Fell short on ticket sales so we’ll be selling tickets after the tickets go out. We’ll first hit the AFs and then !Bob’s List so we can sell those tickets. Biggest expenditure is to cover the road costs/base going in. The landowner is offering to do about half the road. Sodium is looking for the other half. We’re looking at Perimeter/Safety sign boundaries that were not initially included in the budget.

Prost: Are we hiring ambulances?

Sparky: No, the requirement for rented ambulances was from the previous Landowner, for Flat Creek. We are working with local officials to cover that at the new land. With the Sustainability Meeting and getting people talking, hoping that folks will take care of themselves more. Also meeting with sheriff on Wednesday. Also talking with local officials soon to work on that. Ambulances are not in the budget and it’s very expensive.

Nobody: Meeting with sheriff on Wednesday.

Thomas: We need website volunteers, so if anyone wants to help with that. The lead is getting married.

Sparky: We are joined by perimeter team.

Pat: Are we going to send a request to the general populace, via lists and such?
Prost: It’s Drupal so we need people willing to work with that.

Thomas: Successful DaFT fundraiser last week. Made about 10% of budget.

[People]: Woosh Boom Boosh, Boom

Ticket Update:

Treg: We did undersell and there are some volunteers that didn’t send in their money. The LLC is going to spank them. We have heard that printer is almost done with the Survival Guide. As soon as we hear from them we can stuff envelopes and stamp. The projected time to mail out tickets is April 1st-ish. We are planning on putting a blurb in the Flame about “where are my tickets?” this week.

Amy: Should Bob List’s be in the Flame?

[People]: It’s on the website/ emails are sent out. Talk to !Bob about whether he’s OK with it being the Flame.

Dogs:

Casey: Topic came up about dogs at the WH and whether they should be here? I would like to propose that dogs are allowed at the WH, on leash but not in the WH, at all.

Udo: I was going to say “No dogs here at all” but I agree with Casey’s suggestion. Dogs are a buzzkill.

Clovis: I’m going to mostly agree with it. One of things I was going to bring up for Sodium is liability, actual liability. I agree with the inside/outside part … I always feel that the less rules we have, the better off we are. Let’s not create rules until we need to.

Nobody: Whoever said dogs are a big buzzkill has never had children. “On a leash” does not mean with a leash attached but the dog is running around dragging it.

Pat: We should announce our decision and what sidetracked us before is “on a leash”, how do we enforce that? That’s the problem with rules, how it going to work in actual practice.

Rocky: the liability issue, someone is asleep at the switch and someone’s dog is 12 feet away on a leash across the doorway and people trip ove that.

Amy: We have 3 dogs and are dog lovers, and it’s the rule at state parks that a dog must be on a 6 ft. leash. And “on a leash” is secured on a leash.

Gyesika: One of the benefits of ‘on leash’ is you know who the dog belongs to.

Casey: To clarify, this is about dogs at the WH, there are no dogs allowed at Flipside. It’s easier to say “dogs on leash” than “no dogs at the WH”.

Lance: Wasn’t into hard and fast rules. Signage would help “Your dog risks serious injury or death by being here.” Because they do.

Sparky: I am in agreement with Casey, as the dog catcher around here. The reason we had this conversation before was because of irresponsible owners and it’s not fair to the dogs. It’s mostly because this is not a safe place for dogs; it’s loud and scary. And it’s easier to enforce a rule if it’s across the board. I would also ban those extension leashes. I worry about the liability of participants. Now we are at a point where “NO dogs in the WH, on a leash outside, be responsible.” And now it is on the community to enforce the rules, and I’m done doing it. I’ going to count on new signs, WH hosts and managers, and the community to enforce this rule. I WANT TO EMPOWER THE WH HOSTS AND MANAGERS TO TELL ANYONE “YOU HAVE TO LEAVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BEING RESPONSIBLE WITH YOUR PETS”. I’m not going to do it anymore and I pray and hope that no one gets hurt and no dog gets messed up.

Treg: Unwritten law at public dog parks is that owners are responsible for their dog’s behavior. If someone gets hurt because of someone’s dog, then it’s on the owner. They have to pay the medical bills. If a WH host/manager kicks someone out then the LLC has to back them up.

Marva: There are different dog personalities and guardians, and given our CC scribe’s dog [redacted Gyesika takes care of Chewy and he’s good with being in a pen.] If the dog is contained it’s OK, car, pen etc… Leashes are trip lines.

Pat: If we do what Casey says we’ll say that we’re trying this out. It’s an experiment like everything else.

Casey: As we talk about this, I’ve been replacing every instance of dog with child and it’s the same concerns. It’s the same set of liability as with a child. And at that point it falls back to bad owners.

Nobody: Hearing a lot about loading and leashes. And I’m getting annoyed with all the cigarette smoke wafting in. In a lot of situations around town, you can’t smoke with 15 ft of the door. Draw a line on the ground saying “no smoking/ no dogs/ no lollygagging from here.” A loading zone.

Rocky: Yeah, paint a perimeter out the front. I would feel more comfortable with a loading zone. If we could find some compromise I would back this up.

Sarah: I feel like I’m going against the grain, I love dogs have 2 of my own. But I would never bring them to the WH. I work in an emergency room and have seen many kids bit by the family dog.

Gyesika: Thanks for the props, Marva but I disagree with the language “contained” because that word means different things for different people. We’d end up with a dog “contained” in a paper bag.

Dirty: I’ve been rescuing dogs for 30 years and most of those dogs have been abused by humans. People don’t take care of their dogs. To speak personally, I can’t come to a lot of meetings and such because I have to take care of my dogs.

Patrick: Signs are good, but I never saw the WH rules until I became a WH host.

Sparky: It is a responsibility of WH hosts to actively seek out new folks and educate forms.

Patrick: There’s a 10 page PDF of the WH rules and I think these things need to be published a little better so that the community is more aware. [website?] I’m also the DaFT safety lead and that’s a hard enough job without adding dogs. If we could keep them away during build season.

Thomas: Because you are the Daft Safety lead, your rules take precedence over everything. Keep that in mind with regards to dogs. Policies will go out in the Flame and the website. The policies protect this space and the LLC. We have to live up to those to the best of our ability. We need to enforce a policy of awareness. Common sense needs to rule. Perhaps the area outside the door should be a common sense zone. We hate rules but we should love our dogs. The only person who was willing to enforce a community made decision so we could keep our insurance so we could keep the good stuff.

Amy: We don’t necessarily want rules states but when you’re a dog owner, there are already rules. For example, when someone comes over to your house you let them know what to do with your dog so there isn’t an incident. Appeal to “you know your dog” and how would they feel. There are rules on shampoo bottles because someone is that dumb. Sometimes you have to think for them.

Clovis: What I would basically say is that we codify a little as possible. I joined this community because there was little codification. I think it comes back to responsibility. If we make a temporary rule and put it back on the community, that’s a good plan. The broader we can make this and put it back on the community to enforce.

Bonobo: You all need a voice of dissent. I am flat out against this. This LLC is looking for liability containment by opening up to more liability. No one here hates dogs but I hate some dog owners. I’ve heard some dumb stuff. Some the most dangerous shit I’ve done for DaFT was not IN the WH, it was outside. Why are we trying out a trial period right at the beginning of build season? Are we trying to kill Patrick, here? Turn him into the next Sparky? One dog? We’re fine. Two dogs? Your level on uncertainty doubles. Strong dissent, not on LLC, those guys want more liability. Radical inclusive does not include your pets. Create your own event, Burners with Pets.

Ghost: Can we call it Burning Dogs?

Bonobo: The people who are most likely to have dogs that cause problems are also most likely to not have a pot to piss in. What is the correct way to break up a dog fight? It’s with a 6 ft pipe or rod. Not with your hand.

Treg: Gerbils?

Bonobo: I have a fondness in my heart for gerbils. They never ate a living child.

Lance: I am announcing the formation of the Burning Mutt LLC. I am against your dogs being here. I was doing the totems for 2008 with antifreeze and let people know that there was antifreeze around the WH and it might not be a good idea to bring dogs around. This is not a safe place for dogs. But what about more rules? Don’t think that’s necessary; raise awareness that bringing your dog here is a bad idea. Don’t need more rules.

[As facilitator, Lance asks for a motion.]

Casey: Propose a motion that we loosen up the rule on no dogs rule at the WH, NO dogs in the WH, they will be allowed outside on a static leash. If your dogs are causing problems, you and your dog will be asked to leave and you must do so. This is provisional and if it does not work the LLC can revoke this policy at any time.

Beth: Proviso that it must be a static leash.

[I can’t keep track, people were talking over each other.]

Thomas: If this doesn’t work and you don’t help us enforce it then it will be revoked. We have shit to lose so common sense will prevail. Any little thing here can make us lose the event.

Melissa: Why would we risk losing that for a dog?

[Whole lot of dialoguing, couldn’t get it all.]

Casey: Two options: A) keep it the same or B) Propose a motion that we loosen up the rule on no dogs rule at the WH, NO dogs in the WH, will allow outside on a static leash. If your dogs are causing problems you and your dog will be asked to leave and you must do so. This is provisional and if it does not work the LLC can revoke this policy at any time.

Patrick: So how I interpret B is as DaFT Safety lead I can make the call?

[People]: Yes.

Casey: Given all the caveats, who is in favor of option B? Unanimous for B. OK, I will write some official verbiage and bring it to next CC meeting

Community Sustainability Roundup:

Amy: The response I’ve received from the Flame has been overwhelmingly good. People are shocked and saddened that this is being brought up. People are concerned and people from Colorado are contacting me to say this is setting a good example for other Regionals. I received 15-20 emails on Sunday and 4 today and it is all very heartwarming.

Udo: Follow up on something Amy said, worked Gate 3 years and all of the worst shit comes through gate and it’s been really really bad. To what extent are wristbands part of sustainability? Did I jump the gun? I’m sorry I am a premature ejaculator.

Thomas: yes, it is part of it.

Udo: Sustainability in regards to wristbands -- the topography mediates wristbands. It is going to be hard to distinguish between gatecrashers and people who are suppose to be there. I don’t know of any way to make that distinguishable. In order to promote the sustainability of the event, I think we need to distinguish between inside and outside.

Casey: I was really impressed with discussion here and most of the discussion on list. How to keep that discussion going?

Clovis: I was impressed by the people who came out to the meeting. Want to speak to the idea of counseling theme camps. We could throw it back on the person who suggested that. I’m not about bureaucracy and think it is important to get the Theme Camps involved in it. There are probably still people who don’t know. The theme camp counsel is something I would like to pursue and make as an agenda item for next meeting.

Amy: Some of the feedback I’ve gotten and have not posted this to Austin lists and people with theme camps and they are making sure they are policing themselves. Keep them talking and know how important it is. And the recent Flame has gotten people talking and what they can do to pitch in and do their part.

Sparky: Thank you to CC for hosting that event. It was a conversation long overdue and the LLC worked very hard to keep their mouths shut to keep the conversation going. Other Regionals ask us about stuff and we’re happy to help. But we still have things to learn. We realize that we are doing a poor job of introducing the newbies. The thing I’m excited about the new spot is that you’re going to have to run into strangers. The cup of sugar was a good metaphor. Theme Camp responsibility is an important point. We have about 500 regulars and 200 are core volunteers and they are getting burnt out. That meeting recharged my batteries. About 500 regulars and about 1500 who don’t really know what’s going on. Hopefully we can get more volunteers out of that group. It’s not a challenge that the LLC is fearful of. Tell your success stories on social networking sites and there is so much good in this community and us and we have to share the good stuff. Melissa, you talked about taking on risk and responsibility and the LLC took on a minefield with this event, we know the risk, we are willing to take on that risk. We ask the community to help us minimize the risk. You are the conduit to take this back and share your success stories, now that people have been scared. Thank you for hosting; what I thought was very successful meeting.

Thomas: Bureaucracy evolves in and off itself and it happens. If the theme camps get together and do their own thing, they can do that.

Clovis: Us creating more bureaucracy?

Thomas: There are a lot of things we can do, and we are volunteers with limited time.

Clovis: I’m talking about us creating more bureaucracy. 60 leads? 8 AFs?

Thomas: There is only so much growth you can have without not being able to educate. This CC facilitates between themselves and the community and the LLC. There are some policies that are operational and other people make them and we are going to back them.

Sarah: As the Safety Team, we have to make a lot of tactical/operational decisions and we sat down and had a thoughtful discussion about the wristband issue. It was not taken lightly and no one likes them but for operational reasons we are recommending to the LLC that we use wristbands. We don’t want to overburden our volunteers and they help us self-police.

Nobody: This is not a representative body. We do try to represent but this is an advisory body. It used to be that there was the LLC and leads. It used to be the LLC was smaller and not everything could get out. The CC is a communication body. As far as theme camps and representation, theme camps and theme camp leads: they are focusing on something very different then what we are doing here. They are focusing on their project and a social thing. Communicating with them is important but making more requirements, I’d like to keep away from burdening them. We tend to talk to the volunteers and we gear policy towards volunteers but we need to remember that all of the cool stuff that happens out there is because of theme camps and cool projects. Responding to Melissa about risk of dogs, every time we look about taking on risk we ask ourselves is this “for the event.” When we moved to Flat Creek, where there is good rock climbing available, there was a discussion about allowing that at the event. Rock climbing is not part of what we do. Fire spinning is. So we allow fire spinning, which may have more relative liability but not rock climbing because fire is what we do.

Marva: Regarding Sustainability: Can Greeters pump Sustainability in their spiel? I take the representative component of the CC very seriously and I find myself listening and hearing people. I think people have different ideas of what the CC is about and that needs to be addressed.

Amy: Adopt a newbie: this should be set up. Outreach to theme camps to adopt a newbie and school them. I would gladly walk around and let people know to get to know your neighbors. Since I took on the Flame, I try to not put my opinion I it, and I feel like I am talking from an omni place. I am encouraging people to communicate with me their concerns. At gate we saw a lot of people who were new, in the past few years. It took me 4 years to figure out what was going on. Maybe we can put that out there, start some emails. Maybe Gate can ask if people are new and advise newbies to talk to Greeters about what to do. And when they are on the inside, talking to the theme camps. I know that the last Flame was scary but the next Flame is positive and good stories.

Pat: Are we there for the people at the event or the people who are around year round? Then we should tailor it to the people at the event, depending. The CC didn’t add new members this year but we are becoming less and less representational. We need to get more people, who no one knows, involved. We need to make the meetings work with bigger numbers and get more people in or get us looking outward. Sustainability meeting, the things we are looking at here are not unique problems, any event of this size, outside of the norm sees this. Kerrville Folk Festival, Oregon Country Fair, it would behoove us to look at those festivals and pick their brains about how they dealt with these things.

Clovis: CC vs. Theme Camp representation. The major theme camps that have been around for a while, how many of them are not represented here or in the leads? I don’t know that it’s the CC position to advocate to camps. Marva is right; a big part of the CC is listening to people and what they want. As CC members and community members, we need to hear what people have to say. As for the makeup of the CC, if you are not active in the CC, self impose a term limit and step down. Wristbands, operationally, if you decide to do that then the CC should have a unanimous vote to show support for it.

Tom: There are smaller camps and new ones every year. I’m leery about assigning people and all that. It’s a nebulous thing and if we assign CC people to theme camps for outreach, then it becomes an official thing instead of a nebulous thing. I agree that The CC role needs to be more defined. When we come on, we outreach but over time we hang out around the same people. Reaching out: an easy thing to do is stop and think and ask, “do I know 10 people who go to FS and don’t know anyone else on the CC.” It’s a good exercise. It’d be nice if we got to a point where that wasn’t necessary because everyone on the CC knows everyone. I think there is tendency for people on the CC to camp with camps that are not that interactive. I think it might be good for CC members to camp with camps that offer something to community.

Treg: Put your wayback machines on and 05,06,07 and the Earth Guardian responsibilities ramped out. Why not start up a new area of responsibility for sustainability outreach? Similar to the earth guardian lead for theme camps and there was outreach to that to them. In my mind, outreach is creating structure for that to occur.

Prost: Any action items?

Thomas: Edjumication lead might be a good place for that and for them to be in contact with theme camp lists. The one action item I was going to take: collecting info from theme camp registrations and condensing the blurbs form the Flame and sending that out. Best of the Flame before the Prom and send them to the website and if we do our job right the website will have all that info.

Tom: Future CC discussion about CC role and goals and objections and getting new members.

CC Meeting Cancelation Policy:

Lance: Meeting got canceled last week at last minute, people didn’t know.

Motion: No more cancelations without 24 hour notice and a notice goes to list if it gets canceled.

Casey [and people]: Update event calendar on website.

Sparky: Add relocation to motion, not just cancelations.

Lance: anyone want to block consensus?

[Motion passes]

Next Meeting: April 5th

Facilitator: Clovis
Stack: Marva